Brianna

And if experienced practitioners were chosen to apply the treatments, how on earth are they themselves to be blinded to the intervention? How is it possible for them to not know whether they are applying ‘real’ needles, or ’sham’? How are they to be blinded as to whether they are using ‘real’ points, or ‘fake’ points? They can not. And as such, the ‘double blind’ condition is literally impossible to achieve, and therefore invalid as an instrument by which to measure this medicine.

Tess

..signs/symptoms in which is occurs. the very idea of ‘point prescriptions’ is antithetical to the medicine, yet it tends to be the hallmark of how many studies end up being run…

Finally (for now), I want to return to my original point - a single negative study does NOT disprove a modality of treatment. It simply does not follow. Further, you selectively chose a study that failed to achieve positive results, despite the fact that there are many, many other , which do.

Draven

…most acupuncture studies use points as determined by the TCM system crafted by the communist government back in approximately 1950, but this system is not universally used or accepted…

Another issue: properly done, acupuncture does not use formulaic point protocols - ie, what in biomedicine might be seen as a single presentation - such as, migraines - in chinese medicine is not necessarily seen as a single condition… the treatment will ultimately be shaped by the context of other …

Melissa

..for musculoskeletal conditions, this is particularly applicable. it is possible that the ‘non points’ chosen actually could be recognized zones of efficacy.

Another problem to consider: oftentimes, the people inserting the needles are not experienced acupuncturists. It is not enough to merely shove a piece of metal in a particular anatomical location…how it is done, and then later manipulated, is important.

As is the COMBINATION of points that is used…and for that matter…

Amiya

…of the surgery FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL is drowned out by the larger sea of statistical noise…

Another issue you need to consider: sham needles are a faulty premise overall - there are many traditional styles of acupuncture, especially popular in Japan, that do not insert the needles. it isn’t necessary in all cases to do so.

Another problem: what are these alleged ‘non points’? There are treatments that involve the use of zones, for example. Broad areas can often achieve results, and…

Matthew

Back pain, of all things, is one of the most difficult to measure positive results. Patients with pain end up with pretty much identical results (on the average) whether they elect to get surgery, or do nothing over a span of two years - said another way, after 2 years, both the Surgery group and the Nothing group, achieve the same outcomes - on the average.

Of course - averages to not tell the entire story, because it may well be that some of those patients NEEDED that surgery, but the effect

Kaley

i’m sorry, but a single study that failed to achieve positive results does not disprove an entire modality. do you have any idea how many medical studies - including studies on back surgery itself - fail to achieve positive results? do those studies ‘debunk’ surgery as a modality of treatment.

pwnd? please, you have no idea what you’re even talking about.

I’d love to hear your comments on the Bo Anderson fertility studies…

There are other issues you also have not considered…

Vivian

The study compared treatment by (1) acupuncture using traditional acupuncture points and methods, (2) sham acupuncture that used non-traditional points and methods (the needles weren’t inserted as deeply or twirled as in traditional acupuncture, and (3) treatment involving drugs, exercise, and physical therapy. About twice as many in the groups stuck with needles responded to the treatment as in the non-needle group. It did not matter whether the subjects were stuck in traditional points.

Alfredo

Prepare to be pwned.

One high quality acupuncture and pain study involved over 1,100 subjects with chronic back pain. Pain researchers often use the Von Korff Chronic Pain Grade Scale questionnaire and the back-specific Hanover Functional Ability Questionnaire (for back pain studies) to measure changes in back pain after various kinds of treatment. In this study the subjects were given different treatments and evaluated after six months using both the Von Korff and the Hanover instruments.

Kendall

I did address your argument. If you think that I ignored it, you’re not a thinking person; or particularly well schooled in the statistical sciences….

Clearly, my argument sailed directly over your egotistically engorged noggin. I addressed it’s false assumptions - it’s baseless a prioris….

I am fierce sincerely sorry for your brainwashing.

(I say, you should sue the bastards’)

Ring me when you hatch.

Kasey

That’s right ignore my argument. How about you address my point instead of dropping a lame-ass ad hominem. See my video on Logical Fallacies.

Logan

if you only found 5 hits on pubmed for acupuncture, you’re too dumb to talk with.

Savanah

more applicable statistical models will likely be found in disciplines like the Behavioral Sciences - and there’s absolutely nothing invalid about comparative outcome data, either.

you prove the saying - a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

now go to your homework, or you don’t get any ice cream.

Gerald

Ok - look up Bo Anderson’s fertility research.

Having a random dude stick needles in people would be plain old dangerous and irresponsible. What a stupid suggestion.

The fertility studies absolutely do not rely on self reports - neither do the autism studies.

You’ve got a lot to learn, kid.

Weston

for starters, the video above IS a controlled scientific study - people who think the “double blind placebo” model is the only valid model, are simply wrong.

Furthermore, I already told you where to look. If you can’t find it, you’re an idiot.

Caleb

Link to the results of this controlled scientific study please.

Rocco

Went to your pubmed website and did a search.. 5 hits and NONE concluded what you are saying. All said further tests are needed. What I want to see is a real blind study using a ‘professional’ accupuncturist vs some actor pulled off the street playing one placing needles randomly. Remember a success vs failure of accupuncture totally relies on the individual to say if they thought the treatment helped. How do you separate that from the common placebo effect? People also claim tap water heals.

Sheldon

This is a controlled scientific study, and you morons still insist on calling it a pseudoscience?

that’s just plain ignorant.

Carla

it’s for post operative pain, silly.

applicable to any kind of post-operative pain, not just for melanomas.

grow up.

Lilianna

no , they don’t.

Brett

it’s backed by numerous scientific studies….any doctor that WOULDN’T recommend it, is sadly underinformed.

goto pubmed (dot) com and see for yourself….

Landon

a little. can’t lie.

but not very much.

Abigayle

pussy :: l

Stone

does acupuncture hurt. Cause i have a VERY big fear of needles

Madeline

This is balls